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Date:	12/9/99 2:11:33 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Thursday, December 9 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1470<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
SEC : UNCLASSIFIED - Re: One day, one day....<BR>
Re: The will to kill<BR>
Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
Starfleet = Coast Guard<BR>
Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
Re: electronic warfare<BR>
re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
Re: One day, one day....<BR>
re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
Vs: Postman, CCGs, Communications Variability (Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1461)<BR>
goodbye for now<BR>
Re: (Almost) Tidally Locked Worlds<BR>
New Pictures<BR>
Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
Re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 03:43:09 +1100<BR>
From: "David Healey" <David.Healey@dcb.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC : UNCLASSIFIED - Re: One day, one day....<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell <Skaran@bigpond.com> wrote:<BR>
> Actually the best game is when the West Coast Eagles played the Ithklur<BR>
> Wanderers. The Eagles won the game by a point but the Ithklur had more<BR>
> players still alive at full time.<BR>
<BR>
<Jason Barnabas><BR>
What is full time?<BR>
</Jason><BR>
<BR>
140 minutes after the game starts.  4 x 35-minute quarters.  Or, in the above example, when the Ithklur were full ......<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             !<BR>
                                                                                                               <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:09:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The will to kill<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm writes:<BR>
> Kyle Schuant wrote:<BR>
> > i think there is a guarantee - natural selection. Any<BR>
> > species that's eager to kill its own species will<BR>
> > never be terribly populous. If they do rise<BR>
> > technologically, it'll take longer, since thinking<BR>
> > types will tend not to survive!<BR>
<BR>
This, unfortunately, does not mean that the alien race lacks any eagerness to kill humans.  If the alien race is sufficiently weird looking, I suspect the reverse might also prove true.<BR>
> <BR>
> I agree with you here, but only if we assume that thinking (more so than<BR>
> others anyway) individuals are less physically strong. This assumption,<BR>
> however, sounds pretty reasonable, at least if training time is taken<BR>
> into account.<BR>
> <BR>
> If, however, we have a race which fights on pure instinct, the situation<BR>
> changes. Since they no longer need combat practice, the thinking types<BR>
> will have an advantage over the less intelligent ones, even in combat.<BR>
> They simply know when to pick a fight and how to stack the odds.<BR>
<BR>
I can't think of any higher life form which fights purely on instinct.  I'm not sure its even possible without 'uber-DNA' or some other similar method of transferring skills between generations.  In any case, the problem is that a race which has a tendency to kill its own kind will probably wipe itself out, intelligent or not.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, a race which had children in litters might be more violent, since killing off a few extra individuals is basically good in that case.  Perhaps a mutant form of hiver ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 09:28:04 PST<BR>
From: "Gary Miles" <garyglennmiles@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >As an ex-Coastie:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Uncle Sam's Confused Group<BR>
> ><BR>
> >(Are we military, are we police, are we customs?...)<BR>
><BR>
>Saw a piece on Discovery about SAR ops off the Columbia Bar.<BR>
><BR>
>Not On Your Life would I get in those boats.  I have the utmost respect for<BR>
>those who do.<BR>
<BR>
Yah, I was in for 4.5 years, and thought of becoming an MLB cox'n, but got <BR>
out before getting around to it. Served 2.5 years on the only buoy <BR>
tender/icebreaker on Lake Superior, though. One nor'easter coming across <BR>
Superior was crashing wave over the parking lot of Split Rock Lighthouse <BR>
(said parking lot was 90+ feet ABOVE the lake!). Worst seas I ever sailed on <BR>
were 15-foot.<BR>
<BR>
Remind me sometime to post my analysis on why Star Trek's Starfleet most <BR>
resembles the Coast Guard more than any other current service.<BR>
<BR>
Gary<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:45:24 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Starfleet = Coast Guard<BR>
<BR>
I've always believed that but never had any hard facts to support it.  I'd<BR>
love to hear your reasons.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Gary Miles <garyglennmiles@hotmail.com><BR>
><BR>
>Remind me sometime to post my analysis on why Star Trek's Starfleet most<BR>
>resembles the Coast Guard more than any other current service.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:48:06 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Gary Miles wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> Remind me sometime to post my analysis on why Star Trek's Starfleet most <BR>
> resembles the Coast Guard more than any other current service.<BR>
> <BR>
> Gary<BR>
<BR>
Consider this a reminder...this would be a nice thing to have.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:51:28 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, cos 90 wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >turns out to be a Rules Lawyer or munchkin. I hand him<BR>
> >that (him ain't sexist, never met a female gamer who<BR>
> >was a rules lawyer or munchkin) and we're all happy.<BR>
> <BR>
> I have -- I know a female gamer who is also a munchkin. One<BR>
> who has other unwelcome qualities. <BR>
<BR>
What is a munchkin?<BR>
<BR>
I've known a very few obnoxious female gamers, but they were all obnoxious<BR>
because their partners had dragged them along and they didn't really want<BR>
to be there.  They weren't really gamers at all and they drove me nuts<BR>
because they tended to assume the same of me, except when I RAN the games.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:52:54 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: electronic warfare<BR>
<BR>
The technology even exists today to prevent *detection* of your signal. It's<BR>
called spread spectrum technology. You basically spread the energy of your<BR>
communication over so wide a part of the spectrum that it drops below the<BR>
existing background noise level. An adversary then can't even detect your<BR>
communication. This technology is widely used in naval communications today.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Thomas Vickers <redroach@flex.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 6:50 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: electronic warfare<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The thing is not whether or not you can stop him talking, but whether<BR>
> or not you can exploit his talking, a much easier task.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I gotta agree with this. You may not be able to stop an opponent from<BR>
> talking or hear what is being said, but you can triangulate his position<BR>
and<BR>
> drop ordinance on him till he can't talk. That is a very simple low tech<BR>
> approach to hi tech comm systems :)<BR>
><BR>
> TV<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 10:07:17 PST<BR>
From: "Brandon Cope" <copeab@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
><BR>
>Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> >>>>>>>>><BR>
>The term "prizes" refers to ships and/or cargo _seized_ through<BR>
>legitimate means.  Thus, military vessels engaged in commerce raiding,<BR>
>privateers, patrol ships performing customs duties, and civilian vessels<BR>
>that defeat would-be pirates all can claim their vanquished foes as<BR>
>"prizes."  Neither the original owner of the prize ship or cargo, nor<BR>
>any creditors of the prize ship's or cargo's owner, have any claim to<BR>
>the prize.<BR>
> >>>>>>>>><BR>
>Here's a thought:<BR>
>If the Captain of such a new ship breaks a bad smuggling law and his ship<BR>
>gets seized, does the bank lose all their interest in the ship as well?<BR>
>Or does the mortgage contract have a clause that, if the Captain ever<BR>
>uses his ship in a fashion that will get it seized, he is immediately<BR>
>considered to be in breach of contract, and *no longer* the legitimate<BR>
>owner of the vessel? His possession of it could then be considered<BR>
>illegitimate, and the seized ship ight have to be returned to the rightful<BR>
>owner (the bank) as recovered stolen property used in the commission<BR>
>of a crime, rather than retained by the seizing government.<BR>
<BR>
This now goes into property forfiture laws, which usually work to the <BR>
advantage of the government. So, in the above situation, the ship would <BR>
_probably_ go to the government, even though they may recognize the mortgage <BR>
contract as vaild.<BR>
<BR>
A generous and sadistic GM,<BR>
<BR>
Brandon Cope<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 10:13:50 PST<BR>
From: "Brandon Cope" <copeab@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
><BR>
>On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, cos 90 wrote:<BR>
> > I have -- I know a female gamer who is also a munchkin. One<BR>
> > who has other unwelcome qualities.<BR>
><BR>
>What is a munchkin?<BR>
<BR>
Well, _I_ use it as a more insulting version of 'powergamer.' I think it may <BR>
also have some age connotations with it as well (a 14-year old is more <BR>
likely to be referred as a munchkin than a 24-year old).<BR>
<BR>
A generous and sadistic GM,<BR>
<BR>
Brandon Cope<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:07:00 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> What is a munchkin?<BR>
<BR>
A munchkin is the player who sells the ship they get as mustering out<BR>
benefits to buy TL16 Battledress with a FGMP-16.<BR>
<BR>
Then wears it _everywhere_.<BR>
<BR>
A munchkin is the D&D Player that insists they can have a 90th level<BR>
Fighter/Mage/Cleric/Paladin character with +6(18) strength, intelligence,<BR>
and wisdom, a +6 sword and +6 armor.<BR>
<BR>
A munchkin should _never_ be allowed to roll their own dice ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Somewhere on the net is floating the great 4 classes of RPG player lists:<BR>
Munchkin, Role Player, Loonie and He-Man.<BR>
<BR>
ie:<BR>
<BR>
When the party faces a Red Dragon, <BR>
<BR>
The He-Man challenges it to single combat with daggers.<BR>
The Munchkin blows it away with their FGMP-16.<BR>
The Role Player engages it in a philosophical discussion of the nature of<BR>
Evil.<BR>
The Loonie asks it to barbeque a hot dog on a stick.<BR>
<BR>
etc, etc...on and on for pages and pages.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone have a current reference  or url?<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 13:07:48 -0600<BR>
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: One day, one day....<BR>
<BR>
"Jason T. Barnabas" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Antony Farrell <Skaran@bigpond.com> wrote:<BR>
> > Actually the best game is when the West Coast Eagles played the Ithklur<BR>
> > Wanderers. The Eagles won the game by a point but the Ithklur had more<BR>
> > players still alive at full time.<BR>
 <BR>
> What is full time?<BR>
 <BR>
> Confused Yank<BR>
<BR>
From the context, I'd say the end of regulation, ie the end of the<BR>
game assuming no overtimes. <g><BR>
<BR>
A not-so-confused Rebel<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:10:26 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
<BR>
Brandon Cope wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
This now goes into property forfiture laws, which usually work to the <BR>
advantage of the government. So, in the above situation, the ship would <BR>
_probably_ go to the government, even though they may recognize the mortgage contract as vaild.<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
Considering how much of the 3I government *is* corporate interests,<BR>
I'm thinking we'll see the government and the interested bank<BR>
working things out. Of course, if the interested bank were Hortalez et Cie,<BR>
they'd work out a much better resolution on their own behalf than if the<BR>
interested bank were "Mom & Pop's Starship Savings & Loan of Leedor".<BR>
<BR>
Official of the Planet Pinata: "I'm sorry, sir, but _Bareback Potemkin_ <BR>
was seized during a normal customs enforcement sweep. I realize that <BR>
your bank has an ownership claim on this vessel, but our planet's<BR>
laws on smuggling Comparative Sociology Tapes is quite clear<BR>
and direct. We are entirely within our rights under Imperial law to sustain <BR>
these forfieture proceedings as well." <BR>
<BR>
Representative of Hortalez Et Cie: <Silently places mortgage papers<BR>
on the table for the Planet Pinanta's DownPort, UpPort, flotilla of <BR>
Subsidized Merchants, and seven Atmosphere Processing Plants.<BR>
Each one has the clauses involving "conditions for payment on demand"<BR>
highlighted in yellow holo-ink...><BR>
<BR>
Now, how about when two private parties are involved, rather than a<BR>
bank vs a planetary (or Imperial) government? Sunbeard steals my ship,<BR>
you capture it when he attacks you, have you seized a prize that is<BR>
yours free and clear, or have you recovered my stolen property?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:28:26 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
The He-Man challenges it to single combat with daggers.<BR>
The Munchkin blows it away with their FGMP-16.<BR>
The Role Player engages it in a philosophical discussion of the nature of<BR>
Evil.<BR>
The Loonie asks it to barbeque a hot dog on a stick.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone have a current reference  or url?<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
Here's one version:<BR>
http://www.hut.fi/~vesanto/link.fun/players.txt<BR>
<BR>
Got it from Mining Company's RPG humor pages, which also helped<BR>
me find the infamous "Gazebo" story, as well as that of the<BR>
"Head of Vecna".  <WEG><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:39:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
<BR>
>From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
<BR>
>Here's a question thats confused me:  How would the<BR>
3I<BR>
>characterize the difference between 'salvage rights' <BR>
>and 'prizes'? Do the terms overlap, or are they meant<BR>
<BR>
>to distiguish between craft recovered by civilians <BR>
>vs. craft recovered by the military?<BR>
<BR>
Close.  It doesn't matter (much) whether the<BR>
recovering party is civilian or military; rather, the<BR>
distinction hinges on the recovered ship.<BR>
<BR>
A prize is ship captured during wartime.  Either a<BR>
civilian or a naval ship may be a prize.  <BR>
<BR>
A salvage is a lost, derelict, or distressed ship that<BR>
has been recovered or rescued.  Only civilian ships<BR>
may become salvage; naval ships remain the property of<BR>
their government, free of lien, although most<BR>
governments will give a reward for recovery and<BR>
return.<BR>
<BR>
If a civilian ship has become derelict, etc., because<BR>
of enemy action in wartime it will become a prize if<BR>
recovered by the enemy; salvage if recovered by a<BR>
non-belligerent; and what I call "quasi-salvage" if<BR>
recovered by its own side.  <BR>
<BR>
If someone from the same side recovers the ship during<BR>
or conceivably after the war, they may not be entitled<BR>
to full salvage rights, or their rights may be<BR>
deferred until the end of hostilities, to the extent<BR>
that salvage rights conflict with war aims or<BR>
expedience.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:43:15 +0200<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Postman, CCGs, Communications Variability (Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1461)<BR>
<BR>
> I'd wager money that most of the people on this list, even though they<BR>
> consider themselves roleplayers, aren't currently involved in a campaign.<BR>
> <BR>
Not me. I'm GM:ing 2 campaigns and as a player in some 6-7 campaigns played alternatively. <BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:37:18 -0800<BR>
From: "Shawn Campbell" <shawn@electricstitch.com><BR>
Subject: goodbye for now<BR>
<BR>
I've gotten too busy to keep up with the TML. If anyone want's to contact<BR>
me, feel free to send me email.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Shawn Campbell<BR>
shawn@electricstitch.com<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+(++) !tn t4 ru+ ge>+ !3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls(+) pi+ ta he+(++)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:22:53 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: (Almost) Tidally Locked Worlds<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jason T. Barnabas <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
<BR>
>Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:<BR>
> > > Well, based on the formula you just gave, 273*Kelvin* + 10*Celcius*<BR>
> > >= 283K<BR>
> > > * 0.15 = 42.45 Kelvin, or -230.55 Celcius. A tad chillier than<BR>
yourfirst<BR>
> > > result... or have I missed something (I don't have WBH of GS...yet...<BR>
to<BR>
> > > check)<BR>
><BR>
> (273 + 10) * 0.15 = 283 K * 0.15 = 4.245 K<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Nay, Nay and thrice Nay,<BR>
<BR>
283 * 0.15 = 42.45 not 4.245<BR>
<BR>
283 * 0.015 = 4.245<BR>
              ^<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:20:28 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: New Pictures<BR>
<BR>
>From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]<BR>
>On Behalf Of MikeLinsenmayer<BR>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:50 AM<BR>
>To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
Wow! those are great!<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:58:22 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> What is a munchkin?<BR>
<BR>
A munchkin is the sort of gamer who thinks that roleplaying games are all<BR>
about gaining absurd amounts of power in the game world. The munchkin is a<BR>
close companion of the Monty Haul GM, who, not coincidentally, believes that<BR>
giving out power quickly, and in huge doses is the point of a roleplaying<BR>
game.<BR>
<BR>
> I've known a very few obnoxious female gamers, but they were all<BR>
>obnoxious because their partners had dragged them along and they<BR>
>didn't really want to be there.  They weren't really gamers at all and<BR>
>they drove me nuts because they tended to assume the same of me,<BR>
>except when I RAN the games.<BR>
<BR>
The only obnoxious female players I've ever met (and both were part of the<BR>
same gaming circle) exist in a perverse symbiotic nature with obnoxious male<BR>
GMs. The situation is similar to the munchkin / Monty Haul one listed above,<BR>
but selective. In such a situation, the male GM heaps power and riches upon<BR>
his girlfriend or wife, and the female player expects this and gets surly<BR>
when things do not go her way.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:08:50 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
<BR>
>Black ICE wrote:>>>>>>>>><BR>
>>The term "prizes" refers to ships and/or cargo <BR>
>>_seized_ through legitimate means.  <BR>
[deletion]<BR>
>Wait a minute. If Sunbeard steals my company's Patrol<BR>
> Cruiser, and your merchant crew gets lucky and wins <BR>
>his boarding action against you, you now own my ship <BR>
>outright?<BR>
<BR>
Maybe; it depends.  If that the result, the law is<BR>
simply penalizing your company for letting a pirate<BR>
get control of the ship.  That's not necessarily a bad<BR>
result.  (Self-defense could be a legitimate means of<BR>
seizure, to use Black Ice's terms, so the merchant is<BR>
taking the patrol cruiser as a prize.)  <BR>
<BR>
The bank's security interest in the ship and the loan<BR>
that it secures would be unaffected. <BR>
<BR>
It's more likely, however, that the merchant will be<BR>
deemed to have salvaged the patrol cruiser, and will<BR>
have a salvor's lien, but your company will still have<BR>
title.  That would happen in my Traveller universe,<BR>
where prizes may only be taken in wartime by<BR>
belligerents from belligerents.  Piracy is simply<BR>
criminal activity, not the making of war by a<BR>
sovereign against a sovereign, so no prizes may be<BR>
taken.<BR>
<BR>
This reminds me of rhetoric that I've read from 16th<BR>
and 17th Century pirates living in the Caribbean and<BR>
Madagascar.  Some considered themselves sovereign<BR>
states at war with the rest of the world, entitled to<BR>
take any ship as a prize.  That argument won't fly in<BR>
an Imperial Admiralty Court any better than it did in<BR>
the London admiralty court.  <BR>
<BR>
>If the Captain of such a new ship breaks a bad <BR>
> smuggling law and his ship gets seized, does the <BR>
>bank lose all their interest in the ship as well?<BR>
<BR>
Worlds that seize ships without good reason will find<BR>
themselves de facto interdicted, and TAS at least will<BR>
give them a red zone classification.  Ships just won't<BR>
go there.  <BR>
<BR>
Worlds that seize ships and don't provide some means<BR>
for the financing parties to get compensated will also<BR>
find themselves de facto interdicted, because the<BR>
banks won't lend to companies whose business plans<BR>
call for travel to that world.<BR>
<BR>
>Or does the mortgage contract have a clause that, if <BR>
>the Captain ever uses his ship in a fashion that will<BR>
<BR>
>get it seized, he is immediately considered to be in <BR>
>breach of contract, and *no longer* the legitimate<BR>
>owner of the vessel? <BR>
<BR>
The captain is not necessarily the owner, anyway -- <BR>
it's usually some corporation like Al Morai or Tukera,<BR>
or even Jamison Factors -- and it doesn't make any<BR>
difference.  <BR>
<BR>
The financing contract is between the owner and the<BR>
lender.  If the owner's employees (i.e., captain and<BR>
crew) become pirates, the owner still owes the lender.<BR>
 The contract probably does provide that, if the ship<BR>
is being used for the commission of a crime (and crime<BR>
may be defined quite specifically in the contract),<BR>
the borrower is in breach, the lender may declare all<BR>
payments due immediately, and take any lawful action<BR>
(including self-help) to repossess the ship.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:11:15 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Rise and Supposed Decline of the RPG Empire<BR>
<BR>
cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> wrote: <BR>
<BR>
>>turns out to be a Rules Lawyer or munchkin. I hand him<BR>
>>that (him ain't sexist, never met a female gamer who<BR>
>>was a rules lawyer or munchkin) and we're all happy.<BR>
<BR>
>I have -- I know a female gamer who is also a munchkin. One<BR>
>who has other unwelcome qualities. On two separate occasions,<BR>
>two different games, she decided her character wasn't working<BR>
>out the way she wanted, and asked the GM if she could change<BR>
>characters. On both occasions, the new character was virtually<BR>
>a clone of the original. On the second occasion, the GM flatly<BR>
>refused to allow the new character, on those very grounds. She<BR>
>left the game after throwing a hissy fit over the issue. Many of<BR>
>the rest of us did the Dance of Joy when she was finally gone...<BR>
>including the GM.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, I've also met several.  These days at least 20% of gamers are female,<BR>
and they are often just as good or bad as male gamers. You'll find<BR>
considerably more women playing WW World of Darkness games than SF games<BR>
like Traveller, but that is also true for male gamers. <BR>
<BR>
On the larger point, in the early-mid 90s RPG were declining. This is no<BR>
longer true.  I make my living as a RPG freelance writer and these days<BR>
business is booming.  For the last two years RPG sales have been way up,<BR>
espeically wihin this last year.  With the upcoming release of 3rd edition<BR>
D&D and the big Hasbro marketing push which will accomany it, I think this<BR>
boom will continue and expand. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com<BR>
  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:40:32 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
This reminds me of rhetoric that I've read from 16th<BR>
and 17th Century pirates living in the Caribbean and<BR>
Madagascar.  Some considered themselves sovereign<BR>
states at war with the rest of the world, entitled to<BR>
take any ship as a prize.  That argument won't fly in<BR>
an Imperial Admiralty Court any better than it did in<BR>
the London admiralty court.  <BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
Reminds me of a crew of "adventurers" in Bruce Sterling's _Schismatrix_.<BR>
They were once an independent country, based on a large asteroid.<BR>
After several large misfortunes, the territory held by their country was <BR>
reduced to a single interplanetary vessel, with a Big Gun. Now, piracy<BR>
was illegal, but declaring war was not...so they'd come up to another<BR>
ship or asteroid installation, declare war, annex the territory and<BR>
levy taxes. Their legal procedure was quite detailed, but of course <BR>
could only be used because they had a Big Gun on their ship.<BR>
<BR>
I hadn't thought of having any of my Traveller "ethically challenged<BR>
merchants" do this. It makes for interesting color. "We welcome the<BR>
new citizens of the Republic of SunBeard, and are pleased that you<BR>
are so forthcoming in your financial support for your new government..."<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:46:58 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
<BR>
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
>Dan Roseberry wrote: <BR>
> Here's a question thats confused me:  How would the<BR>
> 3I characterize the difference between 'salvage <BR>
> rights' and 'prizes'? Do the terms overlap, or are <BR>
> they meant to distiguish between craft recovered by <BR>
> civilians vs. craft recovered by the <BR>
> military?<BR>
<BR>
>The term "prizes" refers to ships and/or cargo <BR>
>_seized_ through legitimate means.  <BR>
<BR>
>Neither the original owner of the prize ship or <BR>
>cargo, nor any creditors of the prize ship's or <BR>
>cargo's owner, have any claim to the prize.<BR>
<BR>
>"Salvage rights", OTOH, refers to the right of a <BR>
>civilian ship's captain and crew to monetary gain in <BR>
>exchange for _finding_ a ship or cargo in <BR>
>distress, and assisting that ship and/or cargo in <BR>
>reaching a safe port.  The original owner of the ship<BR>
<BR>
>or cargo, as well as any creditors of the<BR>
>ship or cargo in question, may have rights, in <BR>
>accordance with Admiralty law.  <BR>
<BR>
BlackIce has pointed out the most important<BR>
distinction between salvage and prizes, which I did<BR>
not state as clearly in my earlier post on this<BR>
subject:  Ownership of the ship changes when it<BR>
becomes a prize, but does not change when it becomes<BR>
salvage.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1470<BR>
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